Microtonality

[FortePenance]

I'm wanting to play microtonal solos and learn microtonal theory. However, everything is hitting me like a sack of testicles, things such as wolf interval, meantone temperament... help!

Can anyone give me a basic introduction to microtonality?

[brihead301]

Wow, I never even heard of this stuff. Sounds cool though. I'm looking forward to hearing a response.

[kernix]

Check out this link and the Reference links at the bottom of the page:

Microtones:
http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory7.htm#quarter

Microtonal Music - 20th century History of Music:
http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory40.htm#microtones

Meantone Scale:
http://www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory27.htm#mean

wiki "wolf tone":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_tone

[dickiebong]

What the hell is a microtone?
It's hard enough to get GOOD TONE............

[CDguitar]

Originally Posted by FortePenance

I'm wanting to play microtonal solos and learn microtonal theory. However, everything is hitting me like a sack of testicles, things such as wolf interval, meantone temperament... help!

Can anyone give me a basic introduction to microtonality?

Hey Forte

This is a subject that is at the center of my studies these days.

I'll asume microtonality is any note that is bent, pushed or pulled.

For example, when SRV or Albert King bend up to that sweet (5th)
in reality, they are playing a note a few cents sharp of the 5th.
It is no longer a true 5th. Something else, the Blu note of the Blu note. Weird
but true.

Something you must realise about our beloved guitar.
It is an Equal tempered insrtument like the piano.
THEY ARE OUT OF TUNE.
Try this on the 6th string, play the harmonic 1/3 below the 3rd fret.
it's a D note.
Now play the D note at the 10th fret, that note is SHARP.
In fact all notes except for the octave are out of tune.
It's called Equal temperment or 12EDO (12equal distances from the octave)

Why would they do this if it's out of tune?
It's close enough to fool us, it was developed in order to
play equally out of tune in all 12 keys.

Trumpets, saxes, and singers are not bound by our 12edo
that's why a choir will sound so sweet. Or a horn section.

In western blues styles we like to bend those 12edo guitar strings
ever so slightly in order to bring them into tune.
So when Albert King bends that 5th sharp, he is NOT bending out of tune.
That note thats a little sharp, that note is a DESTINATION note itself.

Our frets are at best approximate.

THEEEEE BOOK FOR ALL THIS IS;

HARMONIC EXPERIENCE by W.A.Mathieu

Also Study what Steve Kimock talks about.
He has taken the HARMONIC EXPERIENCE to modern guitar.
He is a master of the application of all this Just Intonation.
And one of the greatest microtonal players I've ever heard.
Also a pretty open and approachable and nice guy.
Do a Kimock search on "thegearpage.net" an excellent pro forum.
Or go to "kimock.com"

If we bend strings because we like how it feels, then we are doing it.
Very benificial to learn the science of it. It's a very difficult subject.
Me, I am right where I stopped in this didcussion. I understand these fundamentals.
Still struggling with the math part of it, Steve has really helped me. I owe him cause
he taught it for free.

I'm already applying these concepts in my playing, it ain't easy. Things like
pushing a string towards the bridge to lessen the tension and drop the string a few cents
- as in the D note I was describing earlier. Push it flat so it goes in tune. 14 cents flat.
It's 14 cents too sharp.

That's 12 edo for ya.






.

[crusty]

An interresting tidbit. In ET tuning, the tritone sounds like a disonance (because it has a ratio equal to the square root of two), but if you tune it by ear, you can make it sound like a consonance by tuning it to a ratio of 7:5.

EDIT:

You can try this by playing a tritone and slowly tuning down the higher note.

[CDguitar]

Here's a little bit from thegearpage - Facinating stuff


kimock kimock is offline
Senior Member

Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
Posts: 447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lalaland View Post
Yea, I'm aware of the fifths overshooting the octave, by 24 cents I think. If you're creating modes using both fifths and thirds...

Say major scale: (Speaking vs a 12EDO)
Root, tonic at 0 cents.
Second, two fifths up, 4 cents sharp.
Third, using a third up, 22 cents flat.
Fourth, fifth down, 2 cents flat.
Fifth, fifth up, 2 cents sharp.
Sixth, third of a fifth down, 20 cents flat.
Seventh, third of a fifth up, 20 cents flat.

The cent values are all approximate.

The sixth is really throwing me off. Hum. Someone want to chime in and let me know?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jamie
The 5-limit offsets are incorrect, they should all be in that 14 to 16 cent range.
Sixth? You got the path right, you got the math wrong, is that why it's bothering you?
Dha is about 16 cents flat of the fret. (Dha is the 6th degree of the scale)
The 3rd above the 4th (the fifth below)
Or, 5th below the 3rd (same diff)

The sixth is a difficult interval for me as well, I'm sure I know exactly where it's at until I try to sing it in tune. Ouch. . .really really bad!!!
!!
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lalaland lalaland is offline
New Member

Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kimock View Post
The 5-limit offsets are incorrect, they should all be in that 14 to 16 cent range.
Sixth? You got the path right, you got the math wrong, is that why it's bothering you?
Dha is about 16 cents flat of the fret.
The 3rd above the 4th (the fifth below)
Or, 5th below the 3rd (same diff)

The sixth is a difficult interval for me as well, I'm sure I know exactly where it's at until I try to sing it in tune. Ouch. . .really really bad!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh my god. Like, seriously, I'm sitting in class reviewing for finals, sin, cosin etc. and I can't even add. I swear, I will be so happy to be out.

Of course, as always, you're correct. 386 cents = 14 cents flat. Somehow in my mind I was thinking 388 and coming up with 22.

Lets try that again!

Root - 0 cents
Second - two fifths up, (204) 4 cents sharp.
Third, third up, (386) 14 cents flat.
Fourth, fifth down, (498) 2 cents flat.
Fifth, fifth up, (702) 2 cents sharp.
Sixth, third of a fifth down, (884) 16 cents flat.
Seventh, third of a fifth up, (1088) 16 cents flat.

Whew!




.

[Mr. Boston]

Originally Posted by dickiebong

What the hell is a microtone?
It's hard enough to get GOOD TONE............

A micro-tone is like a micro-wave, play it for 30 seconds and you can boil the brain juice inside your audience members' skulls.

But seriously, my VERY limited understanding is they're tones that fall between the half-step tones you can play from one fret to the next on a guitar. So the next time you hit a series of sloppy bends that don't quite hit the pitch you're lookin' for- you can defend yourself by saying you were playing micro-tones, lol.

[unclenuts]

Why would you want to play microtonal scales, assuming you're playing western music, which is strictly the tempered scale?

[FenderTEXASTRAT]

Originally Posted by unclenuts

Why would you want to play microtonal scales, assuming you're playing western music, which is strictly the tempered scale?

I know a lead guitarists who tunes his guitar up a microtone or 1/4th step, and when playing against a band, it really sticks out in a cool way. But other than that useless if you are trying to impress people especially in the USA.

[Sexymonkey]

Pantera is usally like 1/4 down. Doesn't make it sound any heavier to me or whatever... but Dimebag must've liked it... it don' bug me though.

[CDguitar]

Originally Posted by unclenuts

Why would you want to play microtonal scales, assuming you're playing western music, which is strictly the tempered scale?

Why would you NOT want to check microtonality out.

Western music is by far NOT strictly 12edo. (12edo = equal temperment)

Consider Aretha Franklin, Ray Charles, Miles, Coltrane,

Jimi, Slash, EVH, SRV, Bill Frisell, John Scofield, Muddy Waters

Angus Young, Joe Satriani and on and on...

They all are or were microtonal players.

Even Yngwie.

All microtonal players.

Me too.

[CDguitar]

Originally Posted by FenderTEXASTRAT

I know a lead guitarists who tunes his guitar up a microtone or 1/4th step, and when playing against a band, it really sticks out in a cool way. But other than that useless if you are trying to impress people especially in the USA.

Can you back that statement that it's useless?

Or do you really understand what microtonality is.

Tuning a quarter tone out is NOT microtonality.

He may be simply out of tune. I've seen bad boy metal guys that don't think

it's cool to tune and they always tune by ear before the show on stage. No tuner.

So unpro.

But it's not what I'm talking about.

[CDguitar]

Originally Posted by Mr. Boston

A micro-tone is like a micro-wave, play it for 30 seconds and you can boil the brain juice inside your audience members' skulls.

But seriously, my VERY limited understanding is they're tones that fall between the half-step tones you can play from one fret to the next on a guitar. So the next time you hit a series of sloppy bends that don't quite hit the pitch you're lookin' for- you can defend yourself by saying you were playing micro-tones, lol.

I wouldn't defend my playing of microtonal stuff because it's

going to sound kick ***, because I know what I'm doing.

I hear a lot of people discard this stuff on this thread.

That's really sad. Because all I'm talking about is beautiful music.

I never shut the door on a new music concept.

Not like some of you guys are doing. That is where the learning stops.

Me, I'm always going to keep an open mind and learn and grow. If I don't like

something I'll decide its value to me after I've explored what it is.

But maybe that's my obsessive/compulsive behavior.

But I'd rather be whacko over being close minded.

Come on guys cut some slack with this micro stuff.

peace




.

[FenderTEXASTRAT]

Originally Posted by CDguitar

Can you back that statement that it's useless?

Or do you really understand what microtonality is.

Tuning a quarter tone out is NOT microtonality.

He may be simply out of tune. I've seen bad boy metal guys that don't think

it's cool to tune and they always tune by ear before the show on stage. No tuner.

So unpro.

But it's not what I'm talking about.

This is a thread I started a month ago http://jsguitarforum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=67509

By useless I meant useless to me, because I have no use for microtonality at all.... but if you can impress me as much as the guy i was talking about in the thread did... then please post your work Im interested.