solo key to compliment song key

[kevinseven]

I posted this elsewhere before I noticed the theory category, I'm new here.
This will be an easy one for you musicians out there, but it is something that is holding me back in my song writing hobby.
Ok, i've put a song together, chords are mainly C, Em, F, G with Dm used sparingly, starts on C and all the evidence points it to being in the key of C major. Correct?
The solo/ melody I was playing to compliment the chords I just came up with - it started on B and ambled around the notes D & C, finishing with notes A, G & F# - sounded OK to me but then I thought hmm F#, this solo is in the key of G (or is it) , even I know the key of C has no sharps!
So I redid it in C, same pattern as before, sounded best starting on E then G,F etc finishing with D,C,B.
Question is what are the rules? Are there any rules? If the song is in key of C, must the solo be in C also ( I know that Am is a complimentary key and this would work, but the solo in G which I was doing is it a no-no?)
Maybe if I recorded the chords and did the solo over it would highlight what worked, but could someone tell me the theory?
Appreciate any advice.

[crusty]

The most important rule when writing music is to write what you think sounds good. If you like the way it sounds, then you're not breaking that rule are you

Rules in music are really only ways of explaining how others have written music in the past. If everyone only wrote music according to rules, there'd be nothing new and original. That said, if you want to analyse why your F# note fits with your song, (without hearing or seeing and really knowing for sure I'll say this) Usually when you get an F# in the key of C it's because there's a temporary modulation into the key of G. The most common keys to modulate to (from C) are F and G. To modulate to F you would use a Bb note, and as you've already seen, for G you use an F# note.

However, you should write your songs without thinking about weather or not you're breaking any rules, just do what sounds good! Music should come from the heart, not the head.

[JonR]

I agree fully with crusty, but in detail...

Originally Posted by kevinseven

Ok, i've put a song together, chords are mainly C, Em, F, G with Dm used sparingly, starts on C and all the evidence points it to being in the key of C major. Correct?

Correct.

Originally Posted by kevinseven

The solo/ melody I was playing to compliment the chords I just came up with - it started on B and ambled around the notes D & C, finishing with notes A, G & F# - sounded OK to me but then I thought hmm F#, this solo is in the key of G (or is it) , even I know the key of C has no sharps!

The chords dictate the key, so the solo is in that key whether you like it (or intend it) or not! (I mean, it will sound either like it's in that key, or that you are using some wrong notes).

The effect of using F# instead of F is not to make the key G, but to add a #4/#11 to the C key. This can sound quite cool on the C chord (making it lydian), and will also work on the Em*. But it won't (of course) fit either the F or Dm chord, which both contain (er) F.
However, without the F or Dm chord (playing just on C, Em and G), it's likely using F# WILL make the key sound like G.
(It's even possible the F chord could sound like a bVII chord in key of G.)

A lot of this depends on the exact chord sequence - the order of the chords and how long you spend on each one. (A list of chords alone won't always specify a key.)

* - In Little Wing, Jimi Hendrix added a C# to the Bm chord (key of G major), which is exactly the same effect as adding F# to Em in key of C. (So you could be in good company... )

Originally Posted by kevinseven

So I redid it in C, same pattern as before, sounded best starting on E then G,F etc finishing with D,C,B.
Question is what are the rules? Are there any rules? If the song is in key of C, must the solo be in C also ( I know that Am is a complimentary key and this would work, but the solo in G which I was doing is it a no-no?)
Maybe if I recorded the chords and did the solo over it would highlight what worked, but could someone tell me the theory?

Essentially the theory is only that you use the same raw material (set of pitches) for your solo that are used in the chords. Those chords are all harmonised from C major, so that's your pitch collection.
You don't need to know any theory for this - not even the name of the scale (or even the chord names!). All you need is to look at the chord shapes and use the notes in them: IOW, on any one chord, begin with the notes in that chord and use notes in the other chords as passing notes. (And don't forget that every chord has many different shapes in different places on the neck.)

There's no reason to use any other notes, unless you find C major sounds dull (and it might well do...). Chromatics (notes outside the key) work as contrast, and add spice or drama. Technically they're "wrong", but not if you use them right. (Just use your ears - much better than any theory book )

But before adding chromatics, make sure you fully explore what the "diatonic" (in-key) notes can do. As well as the chord tones, the other notes all make extensions on each chord. Some of these don't work too well (eg an F natural is a bit "ouch" on an Em chord), but others can give the chord more character - such as a B note on the C chord (maj7), or an E on the Dm (9th).
And interesting rhythmic ideas can also add energy and interest, without the need for chromatics.

[kevinseven]

Thanks Crusty - yes the F# was in there originally to take me back to G in the last bar, and it sounded right to me, I'm continuing my ill educated ways and for i've just done another solo today for a different song - all in key of C but a G# note got in somehow and seemed to fit, so I left it and I like it - we are allowed one rogue note I hope. Ignorance is bliss.

Thanks Jon - the song is basically a reggae groove C/Em/F/G and I wanted to put a simple cheesey solo over the top - the Trenchtown Sound (UK) .
So the notes available would be CEG/EGB/FAC/GBD - I think I have done something along those lines already without really studying it too much.

[JonR]

Originally Posted by kevinseven

Thanks Crusty - yes the F# was in there originally to take me back to G in the last bar, and it sounded right to me

Because it is - for the reason crusty said.

Originally Posted by kevinseven

, I'm continuing my ill educated ways and for i've just done another solo today for a different song - all in key of C but a G# note got in somehow and seemed to fit, so I left it and I like it - we are allowed one rogue note I hope. Ignorance is bliss.

Absolutely. If it sounds right, there's no need to explain it.
Chromaticisms commonly occur as passing notes between diatonic ones. (Maybe the G# was going up to A or down to G?)

Originally Posted by kevinseven

Thanks Jon - the song is basically a reggae groove C/Em/F/G and I wanted to put a simple cheesey solo over the top - the Trenchtown Sound (UK) .
So the notes available would be CEG/EGB/FAC/GBD

In each chord, yes: that's the arpeggios.
You don't need to only play those notes on each chord; but keeping it simple is probably best for a reggae sound. (Arpeggios are quite a common sound in reggae riffs.)

[crusty]

Originally Posted by JonR

...Chromaticisms commonly occur as passing notes between diatonic ones. (Maybe the G# was going up to A or down to G?)
In each chord, yes: that's the arpeggios...

Most common use of G# in the key of C would be a tonicization of Am. (The key of A minor has all the same notes as C major, but G# is used whenever you get an E chord)

JonR:
In the given chord progression it's easy to see that someone improvising over the Em chord might throw in an occasional G# and it wouldn't sound too bad (I think it's something that some singers would do instinctively). Astute rhythm players might realize this at some point and start playing E major instead of Em, but I think it sounds cool anyways. Not confuse things too much, but this might be part of why a 7#9 chord doesn't sound too bad. Whatdaya think?

[JonR]

Originally Posted by crusty

Most common use of G# in the key of C would be a tonicization of Am. (The key of A minor has all the same notes as C major, but G# is used whenever you get an E chord)

Right. But G# could also occur just as a passing melody note, up or down (between G and A in either direction, on any chord).

Originally Posted by crusty

JonR:
In the given chord progression it's easy to see that someone improvising over the Em chord might throw in an occasional G# and it wouldn't sound too bad (I think it's something that some singers would do instinctively).

IMO that's pretty unlikely - unless the following chord was Am, or maybe F.

kevinseven hasn't said in what context he was using G# (only that the sequence was all in C - a different from the first one mentioned).

Originally Posted by crusty

Astute rhythm players might realize this at some point and start playing E major instead of Em, but I think it sounds cool anyways. Not confuse things too much, but this might be part of why a 7#9 chord doesn't sound too bad. Whatdaya think?

Hmm.
A 7#9 (in rock) is normally used as a blues chord, representing both 3rds. As such it's more like an E major chord (E7) with added b3, rather than an Em with added M3.
In jazz, 7#9s are used as V chords in minor keys, but I think there they're regarded as representations of the altered scale.

Obviously if a rhythm player is playing Em and hears a soloist using G#, he/she would make it E major (if they hear in time). But I think it would be an odd soloist (or a deaf one!) who would deliberately choose a G# over an Em - unless (as I say) it was a leading note to an A on the next chord. (Eg, I often do that as a bass player, if the Em is followed by A or Am: run up to A via G-G#.)

[crusty]

Originally Posted by JonR

...A 7#9 (in rock) is normally used as a blues chord, representing both 3rds...

Two exceptions I can think of are Pink Floyd's Breathe and Time, where they follow it in both cases with a 7b9 chord.

Originally Posted by JonR

...Obviously if a rhythm player is playing Em and hears a soloist using G#, he/she would make it E major (if they hear in time). But I think it would be an odd soloist (or a deaf one!) who would deliberately choose a G# over an Em - unless (as I say) it was a leading note to an A on the next chord. (Eg, I often do that as a bass player, if the Em is followed by A or Am: run up to A via G-G#.)

But you don't need to play the G, just G#->A sounds fine over Em. Also in the key of Am, E7 to F is a deceptive cadence, so really the notes G# to A harmonized with Em/Am or Em/F really makes no difference. When I hear the progression that kevinseven gave C/Em/F/G and the progression C/E/F/G, I hear little difference (a very subtle one at least.) I think people have heard 7#9 chords enough (in thousands of hollywood movies at the very least) that it doesn't ring odd with the ear for most. And frankly, if the rhythm player is playing the G note in a higher octave than the soloist is singing or playing a G#, then the chord is major, not minor, and it now has an added #9 on it!

[JonR]

Originally Posted by crusty

Two exceptions I can think of are Pink Floyd's Breathe and Time, where they follow it in both cases with a 7b9 chord.

This is going even more OT , but in Breathe the second chord of that pair is a dim7: D7#9-D#dim7 (the bass is D# anyway, not D) - the vii chord of E harmonic minor, resolving to Em.

Can you tell me where that change occurs in "Time"?

Originally Posted by crusty

But you don't need to play the G, just G#->A sounds fine over Em.

Yes, as a relatively quick melodic approach note (to the 4th/11th).

Originally Posted by crusty

Also in the key of Am, E7 to F is a deceptive cadence, so really the notes G# to A harmonized with Em/Am or Em/F really makes no difference. When I hear the progression that kevinseven gave C/Em/F/G and the progression C/E/F/G, I hear little difference (a very subtle one at least.)

Subtle maybe, but crucial! (And I would dispute that it's subtle anyway. IMO there's a huge difference between C-Em-F-G and C-E-F-G. Of course it depends how you play the chords... the 3rd of the Em could be very quiet.)

Originally Posted by crusty

I think people have heard 7#9 chords enough (in thousands of hollywood movies at the very least) that it doesn't ring odd with the ear for most.

I agree it's a familiar sound, at least in certain situations. (I collect them, so let me have any other specific ones you know!)

Originally Posted by crusty

And frankly, if the rhythm player is playing the G note in a higher octave than the soloist is singing or playing a G#, then the chord is major, not minor, and it now has an added #9 on it!

OK, but I reckon that would be an unusual scenario! (Can you point me to a recorded example?)

[crusty]

Originally Posted by JonR

This is going even more OT , but in Breathe the second chord of that pair is a dim7: D7#9-D#dim7 (the bass is D# anyway, not D) - the vii chord of E harmonic minor, resolving to Em...

You're right, thanks, you've saved me from an embarasing wrong note next time I play the song with my band!

Originally Posted by JonR

...Can you tell me where that change occurs in "Time"?

Very last two chords, right before going into breathe reprise, this time it's B7#9, B7b9 and the first chord of Breathe Reprise is Em. (The bass definitely stays on B for both chords)

Originally Posted by JonR

...I agree it's a familiar sound, at least in certain situations. (I collect them, so let me have any other specific ones you know!)

try any movie that's ever had a jazz standard in it, or any amount of orchestral scoring

Originally Posted by JonR

...OK, but I reckon that would be an unusual scenario! (Can you point me to a recorded example?)

sorry, but I can't think of any off hand. However, logically it makes no difference what instrument plays the major and which plays the minor third (rhythm or melody). The only stipulation is that it's better practice for the major third to be at least a major 7th below the minor third.

this demonstrates:
http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vie...9ea315d8510e43

[JonR]

Originally Posted by crusty

sorry, but I can't think of any off hand. However, logically it makes no difference what instrument plays the major and which plays the minor third (rhythm or melody). The only stipulation is that it's better practice for the major third to be at least a major 7th below the minor third.

this demonstrates:
http://www.noteflight.com/scores/vie...9ea315d8510e43

Actually, that just demonstrates to me that it does sound wrong - both times.
Not hugely maybe, because the sound of the chord has died out somewhat before the "wrong" note arrives. But they still sound wrong to me. I get a definite "huh?" sense as that note is hit.

[crusty]

Well, it sounds fine to me. Although if I were actually going to use it I'd probably add more interrest to the other chords.